'tweadle'

I'm not lump's biggest fan and everybody knows that but I can recognise that he's been around long enough that all the stuff he says that I disagree with (and there's alot) still represents a vote.

you dig at me but say no examples as to why.. then just reword my points like they're your own.. typical, i still agree with the points your making but seriously...

'aA'

i've just tryed to speak with him he told me i dont know what i am saying and i can't speak english that was his only argument and he started blabering something under his nose so i dont take him serious anymore nor his opinions.

that's a lie.. again..

first of all, you didn't try to speak to me, you just made a pathetic attack at me for no reason while i was being a quite and polite little boy in the gather. secondly, i said i couldn't understand you.. which is true.. i couldn't. i never said you couldn't speak english.. not like it makes any difference, you clearly can't read or listen to it.

NB. and for the record, i died a tenth as many times as you in that gather. yes. i counted.

I was just talking generally, not about this.

- Would you allow 400fps CELERITY MARINE jetpacks?

never tryed this ; D might be fun ; p

- Would you allow a flying 1000fps onos?


that just sounds silly and you know it ; )



- Do you agree that NS was balanced under totally different conditions to those that we face?


nope, those coditions were always changing when it comes to ns, some strats were poupalar few years back then and some on the same is nowadays


- Do you think that NS scales upwards fps-wise as the developers hoped?


i dunno what they've hoped for, i dont know em. amd i'm not them


- Do you accept that artificial limitations like those used in F1 and the Olympics are nothing new?


we are talking about games so lets stick to that, in cs only limitations you have are rates, same is in et and was in et:qw, i've never heard of anything more silly than limiting fpses at any game i've played.

- Are you happy to have a research tech that is close to redundant?

no its not redudant, diffrent strategies are used nowadays that's all. you can always go for ha's etc. there's nothing that stops you.


- Do you think that the 200fps jetpacks have helped make heavy armour redundant?

there are lots of things that are redundant in ns that we dont use. starting from electrifice rts ending on even sieges nowadays, those things are not being used much, so do ha's, check my 3rd anwsear.

Because I have played more games than any other player I'm always right! I say ban 200fps!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy I beg you read them, my eyes hurts already.

Sub:
So surely you can just fix the mouse sensitivity issue by lowering your windows sensitivity Multi?

no u lose accuracy.

Tane with stuff like that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy u are giving great ideas for the trolls .. what were u thinking .... !

'Tane'

...but we should be as equal as possible

that's why u play with 120hz and picmip?

equality as the highest target is bad because we have to play with 20fps and not 125fps. and if u follow this doctrine in real economy we have to take a fucking bad car like Trabant(DDR CAR). so i agree to your post but i have various view what kind of equality we have to follow.

"that's why u play with 120hz and picmip?

equality as the highest target is bad because we have to play with 20fps and not 125fps. and if u follow this doctrine in real economy we have to take a fucking bad car like Trabant(DDR CAR). so i agree to your post but i have various view what kind of equality we have to follow. "

Ad hominem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Slipery slope http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
False analogy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy

I rest my case.

equality as the highest target is bad because we have to play with 20fps and not 125fps.

--->If we look at the origin of this ridicoulus discussion here we know that it started cause ppl couldnt get 200 fps and were pissed that game is better for those with 200 fps! And there will always be someone who cant get 125 either or 76 so this "slippery slope" can happen if we remember how stupid and ignorant ppl behave on the internet

So Slipery slope http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope <--- kind of wrong here


and if u follow this doctrine in real economy we have to take a fucking bad car like Trabant(DDR CAR). so i agree to your post but i have various view what kind of equality we have to follow. "

---> I would expect that multivac was going the extreme way to clearly point out his point although everyone knows that that is enver gonna happen we can call taht exaggeration? U kind of have to go in that direction cause u cannot find a proper analogy in Gaming!

So False analogy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy <--- a bit of pain in the ass? btw. i would have used that analogy just to troll u for posting the fallacy stuff

So stop trying to be supersmart by pasting wikipedia stuff it is too way to general in there. Further i kind of doubt u rly read the whole things, but i may be wrong there

"that's why u play with 120hz and picmip?

Ad hominem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem <--- well i got to give u that!


Using ur ending: I rest my case.

In this case equality is average of everyone’s fps, which probably is 111. So no, if we allow 111 fps we don't have to drive Trabant. I don't understand how this wouldn't be slippery slope, this is a classic example.

Okey, bad analogy is really similar to slippery slope in this case, but still. How can you compare ENSL's pursue for equality to some kind of abstract equality? You know there is different kind of equality, two can be equals in front of law but not equal in social situations for example. I though we are all speaking equality in front of ENSL rules, sorry if I misunderstood. But still a false analogy.

- Off topic -
I haven't read them from wiki, in fact that is first time I opened those pages. Though, I have studied argumentation theories over two years in university. I'm such a smartass, but hey! This is fun.

argument theories won't help you here, this is where people will shit all over their own argument but still come out thinking they're right. remember.. 1 is bigger than 50.

Well i didnt wanna do that but something about the way u argue pisses me off.

So lets look at this again

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I highly doubt u post ur wiki stuff cause u want to educate us! So my conclusion must be u want to be like u said a smartass which incinuates u want to make other ppl look stupid or at least more stupid than u are .. so u kind of insulting their inteligence right? .. and further these wikis have nothing to do with the argument itself so .. CLASSIC ad hominem abusive? i ll copy that out of UR wiki

"Ad hominem abusive

Ad hominem abusive usually involves insulting or belittling one's opponent, but can also involve pointing out factual but ostensible character flaws or actions which are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and even true negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions."

U may now find some other wikis to prove me wrong ! <--- ad hominem here too? .. kind of XD!

btw. i warned u that ppl will use ur wikis to troll XD !

Edit: I forgot : I AGREE THIS IS FUN ^^ !

wow tane, you're the most known guy from levi team to be 1st to use higher fps always known for using developer 1 and abusing picmip... i can easly call you hypocrite since you use something you want to ban... fully to maximum. it's like saying i hate EU and i'm against it but i come travel across eu countries and work there... even use european funds to start out my company...
life is not equal and not logic either, i'm sure a guy like you tane should know that ppl are not equal that's why some systems do not verify with life even thought "logicaly" everyone should be happy living in it.

tell me on which point u dont agree tane!

1. More players can reach 20fps then any above.
2. we reach the highest equality on 20fps.
3. we should be as equal as possible.
4. we should play with 20fps.
5. equality is average of everyone’s fps which probably is 111.

many people who use 200fps want to ban it because they can see it's imba. that's the whole point aA.. can you try to take this on board please. many people are repeating themselves a lot and you don't seem to acknowledge any part of the counter argument despite everyone whose arguing against you saying they understand your perspective.

what's wrong with using something you hate? i don't like the government in the UK but i'll choose free healthcare when possible.. i'd be stupid not to.. I don't see how that is an argument in the slightest aA.

life isn't equal, sure, but how is logic not equal? wtf.

Eistee: I have criticized people ideas and opinions but not themselves. If I would say: you all are fucking noobs, who don't have clue about NS, that would be an ad hominen. My motives are irrelevant, only what I say is relevant. It's not my problem if you think my argumentation makes other people look stupid.

aA: I'm not answering to you before you learn not to insult people every time you post something. Things like what Levitacus did or didn't or what I did a year ago are totally irrelevant. We are arguing should we cap fps, nothing more nothing less. Would you like if say that your arguments are worthless because you used to exploit your warping? Please, leave these kinds of arguments out of this conversation.

Multivac: Okey, you got me! Clearly I have to say every obvious thing loud. Let’s say there is 50 ENSL players which plays with 111 fps, 10 players which under 111 fps and 10 players which play with 200 fps. Clearly the average value is 111. True this is compromise, after all those 10 players still under the cap. But ENSL shouldn't do rules according to minority but according to majority. Cap to 111 or 125 would make ENSL more equal and fair, but with what cost? To be honest I can't think anything but selfish reasons.

'Tane'

aA: I'm not answering to you before you learn not to insult people every time you post something. Things like what Levitacus did or didn't or what I did a year ago are totally irrelevant. We are arguing should we cap fps, nothing more nothing less. Would you like if say that your arguments are worthless because you used to exploit your warping? Please, leave these kinds of arguments out of this conversation.

sorry mr. i havent insult you anywhere, if you take some things as insult then it's your problem, your deal not mine. i've never abused warping, it's not my fault it takes ages for my net provider company to repair some things that are broken which i've reported to them and been really throught some hardship not just with my net company but with this community members as well, you simply interprete things in your favour explaining your inner "why" to not hurt your inner "me". i stated the obvious that at this point you're hipocryte which i'm right and you're just playing politicaly correct here, if you know what i mean.
generaly get some balls and be a man, if you're sinsitive go hide somewhere in the corner and dont take part in this disscusion.
i've also agree i shouldnt take out the things from the past, but gl_picmip is quite recent event you've been into.

'tomato'

many people who use 200fps want to ban it because they can see it's imba. that's the whole point aA.. can you try to take this on board please. .

many? you tane jiriki + tweadle

those that dont find it abusive and also use it:

me multi frg eistee?

i wont mention those that wont even bother talking here as they take it just to be silly.

i've only taken into consideration those ppl that are atm. into this matter and participate in this discussion. so i've just blown off your argument right here.

so don't call yourself majority here.

majority? urm.. what?

i'm not going to reply to that because you haven't read anything anyone has said.

man its getting really tiring reading all of this


starts to feel like work


&tane, you need to understand 2 things:

1. most people can reach 200 fps
2. this discussion isnt about whether we should ban 200 fps because many cant reach it, but
more like "should we ban 200 fps because it ruins the quality of games?"

as someone who uses 200 fps i know its great fun and far from game ruiner as a marine. and id like to
keep using 200 fps as a marine.

problem is, its really no fun when you play as an alien against it. leads to a long ass predictable game, feels like turret spam on able actually, you got the whole map and rines got 1 pg in a hive and 2-3 rts, and you know you will lose.

in conclusion, i say ban 200 fps, not because some ppl cant reach it, but because it ruins the
game for half the players.

I didn't have any strong feelings about this, but I have to say Tweadle/jiriki/Tane convinced me argument wise. Sorry aA :P

*edit: Can you please delete everything regarding the lump discussion? Hard to look for valid points in an argument when there is so much flame and insults around.

No necros its fun !

btw. aA is not entirely right for saying i want 200 fps .. i think to cap it is retarded but i dont care anymore cause cap will only be on in season just like ratestuff and there wont be another ns1 season .. NO NEED TO DISCUSS THIS ! NS2 different story ppl will whine about other stuff! They always do !

and Tane: see thats why i didnt wanna go there i ve made a lot of assumptions which i still think are true but no way to prove that and of course u would say otherwise .. but as smart as i was i opend an exit alrdy by saying i told u ppl would troll u so i can just say .. i dont care i only wnated to annoy u XD .. well that would be the easy way but mainly it was fun to argue about the way ppl argue cause it is propaply the most pointless thing to do .. and i was wondering when tweadle would start deleteing like all that stuff ;) !

can someone please remove aA and frGs votes for constantly whining about other player's skill levels, ignoring half the arguments and making egotistical suggestions about how other people should play the game. You can't talk to these people, it's impossible.

PPL JUST LET IT GO !!

Here is a true story for u guys maybe u might learn something from this:

A guy lost both his legs at age 4 or smthing. He got some prostetics and he set himself a goal I want to complete the IRONMAN (yes the real one) And last year he participated in the IronMan after the cycling he missed the cutoff time by 4 minutes (thats not much), noone made any exceptions thats the way it is and guess what the guy said! Well it is harsh i came so close and cannot finish it but i will come back next year and then I WILL ... he didnt blame anyone he didnt whine so someone would make an exception cause he has no legs he just saw it as an opportunity to work harder get better and prove the ppl THAT NO MATTER WAHT HANDICAP U GOT U CAN STILL BE EXCEPTIONAL !
END OF STORY!

U guys would propaply cut of the legs from all participants so it is fair to that guy!

I'll do Tanes comment right here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy

aA just said the thing out loud that has been bugging me the whole time. Every side seems to think theyre the majority or there are many players like them (plus Tane thinking they are normal distributed). But thats just what people think. There is no survey or poll to back anything up. Both sides seem to be able to just name a few players who think alike or agree to some point.

I THINK majority doesnt really care if you cap it or not. I might be wrong though. I dont care myself. It just seems stupid that you let people get used to it and then you start thinking about capping it. If you wanted to cap it you should have done it a while ago or at least now. It takes time to get used to new fps. Also I have heard the word "equal" quite often here but not "individual freedom" once. This reminds me like making DC as the second chamber. Pro fades can take regen and keep fading with reduced efficiency and nub fades can take cara and wont die as much as with sc. Of course it isnt exactly same situation but reminds me of that.

As a fade I like those 200fps jetpacks more. Its much more fun to kill than normal jp. As a marine I like those 200fps jetpacks more. As a skulk I think they are scary.

That 400fps marine is unplayable without jp. And you cant change rates while playing anyway if the plugin is enabled.

Tweadle: About jp startegys. You know they have been used like that since jp cost was reduced. HA is way too expensive. I dont see 200fps has made any spike to the use of jps.

And if you make some poll please explain the facts well enough.

vartijas post +1 ! one of the few reasonable things written here lately !

well said vartija.

vartija i know your point exactly.. but only one person here has used the word majority, that was aA.

EisTee, you still play gathers right? Say a bug was found that meant you could fire all your pistol clip at the same time if you used a certain impulse; you think stopping people from doing that is the same as chopping off the legs of everyone who doesn't do it?

It's like Tweadle said; what it boils down to is where you draw the line between personal freedoms and a level playing field.

I admit that 200fps isn't the most significant factor around, but it's just kind of lame and has a really easy fix that won't actually hinder anyone elses game to a point worth mentioning.

Poll it is. If majority indeed plays with 200 fps_max then it's fine.