What do people think about the idea of removing contamination and instead every alien life-form would have a biomass 9 upgrade:
Gorges bilebomb does armor and health damage on biomass 9.
Lerk spores do health and armor damage on biomass 9
Fades get acid rockets or a stronger normal speed swipe on biomass 9 (remove stab)
Skulks still have their xeno
Onos would still have stomp, move it to biomass 9 so it stays consistent with the other strong abilities.
I would remove having to research stomp and xeno, so you don't have to research any of these abilities. I would increase the time you would have to wait for biomass 9 to be completed.
just remove the bile bomb part of contamination to make it playable again, it's literally the only thing that's making it op... why would you change 30 different things only to remove one OP feature?
why would you remove advanced metab? i know i've said many times that it's really strong, but as phone already said, the tres is much much better invested into umbra and 2nd hive chambers instead of adv metab. if you REALLY want to change it (because i understand that in a long stalemate game it's gonna give fades a huge advantage, especially when you get 3 fades up) - i'd suggest lowering the hp regen down to 10 from 15 (i think?). Removing it is only gonna take away the fun part of staying alive long enough as a fade to get rewarded with a bit more survivability
If marines cant kill fades theyre not supposed to win the game anyway
*edit, I am not the only one discussing these changes, so I made updates to indicate that**These are the 4 changes we have planned to be put into the beta comp mod to test and hopefully add into regular comp mod once season is over or something similar to these values:
1) kGorgeBellySlideStartSpeed = 7.75 // Comp Mod change, lowered from 8.9.
2) Move spores to biomass 7 and increase the hp damage on sprores by 2.
3) Increase mine hp from 50 to 80.
4) Change hp gain from advanced metab from 15 to 10 per metab.
We will be also looking at rifle spread and seeing if there is something we can do about lerk's taking a lot of damage against rifles. Considering changing rifle spread or hitboxes for lerks. Contamination... we have no plans to change at this time *edit, I will consider options*. My idea to add biomass 9 abilities to all alien life forms is probably not worth the effort to change since it's a lot of changes and biomass 9 doesn't always come into play. I know people feel like the bilebomb on contamination is op'd. That is the point of contamination though, and I think it's an appropriate end of the game mechanic as a lot of games don't go to biomass 9. Aliens deserve to win at that point imo. I would be more up for looking at adding another minute for an alien team to have to wait till biomass 9, but I think it works fine as is.
1) potentially a good change imo.
2) Too much of a nerf ( "oh but the extra damage should blah blah blah" ) moving to biomass 6 would have been fine without buffing/changing the damage, moving to 3rd hive means defending the second hive etc will be made more difficult for aliens.
3) good change
4) good change.
Increasing rifle spread will have knock on effects against all other lifeforms. and then everything will need to be tweaked around that change and so on and so forth... an increase to rifle spread is not a solution to lerk hitboxes.
As for the rest of the paragraph, I don't mean to sound like an ass or anything, but... it sounds very much like if you disagree with a change, it just won't happen... so why not change the name of the mod to "Decks balance mod".
My proposed contamination changes would be all/some/one of the following.
1. Increase the cooldown of contamination so its not so spammable.
2. reduce the damage of the bilebomb to about 75% of what it is now. (not remove it, just reduce the damage).
3. increase the cost by 1 - 2 tres per contamination.
4. Make contamination require research that takes 60 - 90 seconds to complete.
I do discuss the changes with others and contamination has people on both sides of the argument. I don't think it's worth making all the changes you discussed even if they play potentially better. The argument could be a simple one, is it worth removing the bilebomb aspect of it, or should contamination be as strong as it is currently because aliens earned the right to win the game? You could see it both ways.
I don't know why people are in these games where they let the alien team get to biomass 9, but are upset contamination is too strong. A lot must have went wrong to get to that point. I think the point of biomass 9 and contamination is you are saying good bye to balance at that point. It's about giving aliens op abilities to stop any kind of turtle or marine range counter that allows for an easy come back. I think it accomplishes it's goal. I can see why bilebomb would be annoying to play against though.
If you disagree with the premise that there is a point in the game where aliens deserve op abilities...then we might see the game differently. How about the idea of increasing the time it takes to get to biomass 9 to give marines more of a buffer? If you increase the time it takes to get to biomass 9, less games get to that point, and this is less of an issue. You increase the balanced time of the game (any time before biomass 9). You also might make it extremely rare to see contamination because marines will have failed on rushes more often before that point and f4'd.
really though, why would you keep the bilebomb on contamination? is your only argument that aliens need something to end a turtle?
I'm convinced that aliens on 3 hives biomass 9 should not be an instant gg. right now, marines can't even get out of that situation. and if you dont change anything, rushing 3 hives is gonna become a viable STRAT (VEIL) -> CANCER
It's not just about a turtle, it also forces marines to move. You need biomass 9 to be really scary or the marines don't feel the pressure. Again, why not try to come up with a change to how long aliens have to wait for biomass 9 that works well in a veil 3 hive strat scenario? We should consider what is a fair amount of time for marines to get nano and be able to take 1 of the 3 hives down or what amount of time would give them a chance with a couple rushes that would have failed by then. I don't think we need to nerf the biomass 9 strength though.
The game is more interesting when marines are moving and trying to get hives down, making pushes. That should be the focus. I don't want to implement anything that makes that less likely to happen at the most dynamic part of a round. The fear of the late game should make the mid game better which is the best part of NS2. It's the best part because it's the most balanced time in the game, it also keeps games at a good length. People are having more fun when rounds aren't lasting more than 40 minutes because they are more likely to be up for playing another round. Same thing with gathers, if you end up with a long gather round, it takes the energy out of everyone.
My focus is on making the fights and mid round part of NS2 as good as I can make it. The gameplay works well when you focus on that. I understand where people are coming from with the contamination complaints, but I think the ability actually serves a good purpose.
I'm not debating that it serves a good purpose. what i'm saying is kind of similar to what you're saying.
I think the bilebomb of contamination is pretty fun as an alien commander, the issue is that its a very strong ability, offered for free (you're buying biomass, not contamination, contamination is the free gift with purchase).
imo you should simply add a research button so the alien commander has to buy the ability and maybe reduce the health of the contamination itself (not the damage of it) so that a marine with shotgun and W2 can 1 shot it, then the ability would require a little more skill to use and be less of a "lol, spam" ability.
This means that you don't delay biomass 9 which has other benefits already, and you offer a mini-nerf to the ability that doesn't take away from its destructive power, but it does allow marines a small chance to deal with it.
what makes you think that OP contamination is needed to make 3 hives valuable? 3 hives has always been a problem for marines because xeno is already so strong. do you think marines would just sit and wait and turtle on 3 rts and tech up and win the game if there wasn't the OP bilebomb contamination?
Yes Xeno is strong, but contamination is important. It is possible if contamination wasn't as strong marines would not fear the countdown as much to biomass 9 knowing they can still win if they kill a couple important life forms on the way to a hive. Xeno also depends on how many skulks you have and isn't a guaranteed win against a teched up marine team hive push. The point is; you make games longer if you make contamination less powerful and you make it easier for marines to come back. In a biomass 9 scenario, marines do not deserve an easy walk back into the game. This was my point about adding other alien life form abilities because Xeno in my opinion does not do enough for keeping games at a certain length and giving aliens the advantage they deserve as much as contamination does.
Adding a research button makes sense to me. I want to know how much of it gets spammed every time you press it, the cool down, and how many sg blasts it takes to destroy one. Your health for one shot idea might make sense, but need to know the other information too.
i feel like you've never even played against CONTAMINATION
right now it takes i think 6 (!!!!!!!!) sg w2 blasts to kill a single contamination thing, the alien comm can drop another before you're able to kill even 1
and instead of taking away one simple effect from it you want to nerf it to the ground by reducing health to a single sg blast???????????
ok well I'm entertaining the ideas that are presented. I'm not saying it will be changed. I like kash's idea about making it an ability you have to research. Perhaps add a minute or 2 research time to make aliens have to wait a little longer for it. If it's that crazy, then it's made to be an end of the game ability. How long is the cooldown time?
*Edit*: After discussion, we will request a change to contamination to remove all the bilebomb aspects of contamination.
Changes planned for NSL Competitive Mod after the season:
1) kGorgeBellySlideStartSpeed = 7.75 // Comp Mod change, lowered from 8.9. - to explain what this is from. This was in old comp mod, but it was never added to the current comp mod. This changes the acceleration of the gorge so you won't see gorges super fast right when they begin to bhop. Top speed may be affected by this change as well. So if you notice in the current comp mod, gorges are really fast in a split second, it's because we never changed this.
2) Move spores to biomass 7 and increase the hp damage on sprores by 2. - there may be people that would prefer this changed to biomass 6, Please share your thoughts on this.
3) Increase mine hp from 50 to 80 - this is so you can't clear a mine by yourself as a skulk with adrenaline or crush with one energy bar. You would have to wait for your energy to go back up to clear a mine as a solo skulk.
4) Change hp gain from advanced metab from 15 to 10 per metab.
5) Remove bilebomb from contamination - this is because there were complaints on how strong contamination is. Removing the bilebomb makes it similar to what it was in old comp mod, and you can still echo structures while using contamination which could still be strong.
Things I would like to review:
1) Lerk hitboxes/movement mechanic/change rifle spread - review if lerk vs rifle is working or if it needs something else to make this work better.
2) Weapon pickup time for marines, is it too easy to pick up a weapon after spawning in that you dropped earlier without a gorge there.
3) Marine upgrades, are any changes needed to make the game play differently/better?
4) SG spread, we picked a number to make it easier for lerks, and UWE happened to pick a similar number (SG spread is larger in vanilla (8.5) compared to comp mod which is more compact (9), Is this where SG spread should be? With current comp mod, I would consider changing sg spread to be a little more compact - 9.5 instead of 9.
Spore to biomass 6 without a damage increase would be my preference... biomass 7 feels like too much of a nerf.
I don't totally agree with the complete removal of the bilebomb from contamination, but I do agree that it needed nerfing, so i'm not going to complain about it.
There has been feedback from other people as well preferring biomass 6 for spores over biomass 7. We will discuss this more before a change is made to comp mod. Biomass 6 could be the better choice.
The goal is not to change the game from vanilla unless the fights/gameplay would play better in 6v6 and not be too different from vanilla so people can easily adapt. I didn't explain well why the gorge change is being done or planned to be done. The old comp mod had a part of the code the nerfed the gorge acceleration which worked well with gorge bhop so you couldn't go super fast right away. So this is just to make the gorge movement very similar to old comp mod.
what deck is trying to say about the gorge movement is, as of now, when you are facing a skilled gorge, they can abuse the instant belly side-slide SPEED and get away from almost any situation where they should usually die.
i understand you dont come across skilled gorges often though so your confusion is justified i guess
Can you explain what you mean by that? I've heard quite a lot of people making this claim lately, and I don't see how the changes to comp mod so far are by any means going too far away from vanilla. UWE changes way too many things in vanilla right now and it's asking a lot really to balance those (mostly shitty) new features into an environment they're not meant to be in (6v6)
Things like bilebomb contamination or biomass 4 spores are not something designed for 6v6 and they work horribly in it (if people are smart enough to figure out how to abuse those mechanics correctly).
And there are many more things like this that have been balanced so far, I dont see why people keep shitting on deck for making a good, nicely KEPT UP TO DATE, actually not retarded (looking at other candidates trying to push their own comp mod ideas through rofl) comp mod. If people have problems they can actually explain in a CLEAN WAY then I'm gonna listen, but to stuff like this i can only say
lul
Hmm, does that incredibly stupid post from Bauer even deserves an answer? I am not sure, but anyway:
1. About the Gorge movement. I think I misunderstood what it actually changes. So it does nerf the Initial speed and not top speed?
2. You obviusly are not good at reading things or not good at comprehending things, or both. I never said contamination would be any good. I never said spores on bio 4 were any good. I never said UWE did great updates. In fact, I said after every new Bad update how shit it was. I understand that you don't know that because you do not care and also you can't read properly.
3. UWE does not change much at the Moment, NS2 updates are very slow atm.
4. I never shitted on Deck or anything, I never disrespected him, also I am glad he took the iniative to Form the comp mod and I am glad he cares that much. Does that mean I should not share my thoughts? It is funny to read a Post like yours from a Guy who doesn't know to be constructive at all.
I dont know whats supposed to be wrong with my post but if your way of arguing is THIS (((he did not understand what i was trying to say, im gonna call him stupid although he did nothing to escalate the discussion))), mayhe you should refrain from posting anything at all in this
Anyway, can anyone else tell me why quite a few people (seem to) think that comp mod is going too far away from vanilla? Im sure there are many out there who think this and I'd just like to know why
I think the reason they feel that way is because of changes like the removal of focus, the change in biomass for multiple abilities, the change of what the abilities do, the alteration of commander abilities (myst not working off of infestation etc). add to that the removal of health bars, the revert to the hit boxes, gorge Bhop and other general changes (shotgun spread etc)
All of that makes sense when it comes to creating balance, but it does change things quite noticably from vanilla play.
The idea of the mod was originally to balance things, not revert/change them... it seems deck is now opting to take the change route more often than the "balance" route... just to be clear, I'm not saying the changes are not creating balance.
What I am saying is the balance could be created instead, by maintaining the mechanics of vanilla and changing the numbers to make them more suitable for 6 vs 6.
I don't really care either way tbh, as long as 6 vs 6 is fun to play, i'll continue to play.
Tbh, most balance change examples you gave Kash are changes I like.
Why I wrote that with going too far away from vanilla is because the marine upgrades. I mean this one is really huge and should not be touched. Only because you have a certain upgrade meta (which you will always have) doesn't mean balance is off.
I believe you should concentrate on things that really bring the gameplay on a better level, not just change it. Because then you will have those changes that differ much from vanilla without a valid reason.
The thing with the lerk is, you try different changes to balance the new hitbox, causing collateral damage. I really don't know why you see the old hitboxes as a "last option" thing, especially because they were a bad addition and doesn't change gameplay from vanilla. It makes it more difficult to hit things, yes, but you don't have to learn anything new as a new comp player who is only used to vanilla, whereas things like spread change how you can use a gun.
All I said was I wanted to look at marine upgrades. Not saying I had any ideas for it or that it was close to happening. It's always risky to change major things in the game, most of these changes are very minor with 6v6 in mind. The problem is, I don't think you can be consistent across the board. Kash seems to have a preference that he wants to keep everything in the game if possible, but change op stuff enough to make it playable. Other people just hate the principle of healthbars or armor regen on onos boneshield, spores on 2nd hive, and don't want to just nerf something, they want it removed. I think it depends on what you're discussing. It would be nice if everything was the same, but it isn't. There are big things and small things.
The goal is to make the game play as good in a 6v6 environment as possible. To also keep the game like vanilla when we can, but I focus on keeping the game the same mainly for movement (except gorge) so players can come from vanilla and use their same skills and be successful. Also, the weapons work almost the same, your sg will hit a tad more in comp compared to vanilla, probably not a bad thing coming to comp. So yeah, I wish I could give you guys the perfect plan for how to make every change, but it's a never ending quest. If UWE adds anything new to the game, you have to consider how that affects the game as well. With 64 bit coming, who knows what they will add to the game. Perhaps skins, perhaps more.
I get a feeling people against what I'm trying to do fall into different categories
1) The Kash group: keep everything in the game, don't remove stuff...but yes change it/nerf it if it's ruining the gameplay.
2) The I hate certain things in the game Home group: dislikes advanced metab, new hitboxes, want's the game to be pure from a comp standpoint, but has his own preferences (like everyone).
3) The group that wants a grand vision: the wishing for a melding of the worlds of vanilla and comp perfectly. The, I'm clueless because I am not working towards this goal group. My goal is not to make vanilla work perfectly with comp, there is a comp mod for a reason. It was not my decision to make the game inconsistent across servers (you have pubs from 7v7 all the way up to how many is it on wooza's again?) I don't have a grand vision, I just want the game to play as well as possible for this community, and I'll attempt to make the necessary adjustments to do it.
There will always be people that fall into different groups like described above. There is no way everyone is going to agree on everything. That's ok, you can share your thoughts. I do listen. For example, Kash has made a lot of great points which gets me always taking another look at something. So just because I don't say, yes were going to do exactly what you want, doesn't mean your points don't get through and may help affect the final outcome. I wouldn't be posting here if I didn't want to hear your opinions. If I thought I had all the answers, I wouldn't talk to other people about the game.
Haha yea I know I may sound a bit extreme sometimes, but I am very much aware of this:
There must be the one person who takes decisions and I appreciate all the efforts everyone involved puts into it.
Just remember people like me who are not involved don't have any info on how your internal discussions go, so sometimes a proper reasoning behind proposed changes is missing or it seems very random.
In the end, comp mod plays much better than vanilla, I think everyone can agree, no matter what group he belongs to.
I have to disagree on the last part though. I think balance is different on different players size servers too. But I don't think gameplay is different (even though the meta is). Every 12v12 pub would play better with comp mod than it does with vanilla.
Yes I agree. Going forward, I will try to make it more of a discussion for everyone with possible topics of conversation. I just thought it was easier to have a discussion with things that were closer to happening and things that we could think about for the future. Gets the conversation going. The reason I have that list of 5 is because there has been discussions about them and they were closer to actual decisions. It's not like the game has been changed in any way yet. I will try to make it sound less like this is definitely happening and more like, these are things that have been brought to my attention that seem to be the most pressing, let's hash it out. I can definitely agree with that.
A more slow progression of decision making would help ease the process of change. The only issue with that is, if I make it so open ended, nothing ever happens. I feel like we have a good mix of taking people's opinions, but also having a system in place that gets things done. Thanks for the feedback though. I will try to work on this. It would be easier imo if we have certain areas people can go to just discuss a certain topic/change.
For me it's not the current changes. Comp mod hasn't gone too far at this point. But some of the ideas being discussed might be going too far if implemented. Adding new lerk movement mechanics, adding new biomass 9 abilities for life forms, etc.
Don't get me wrong... Talking about changes in an open discussion is great. But I think I'm more conservative about what needs to actually be tweaked to preserve competitive play. Just my opinion, but the less changes to create balance the better. On the other hand I can also see how people would like new mechanics if they're balanced.
All in all, I think comp mod is coming along great. It's working towards a goal and constantly open to being tweaked.
I think most of those things that scare people off are just deck's text wall rants. Random ideas thrown into the room for open discussion (but I'm sure most people are conservative enough not to let those ideas go through)
Nothing to be afraid of I hope
